QUESTION OF THE DAY: WAS THE WOMAN AT THE WELL A VICTIM?

How would our current culture describe the Woman at the Well?

Would they describe her as a victim of the Patriarchy? [ Of that you can be sure - dryly ]

How do you explain all her marriages and her current "shacking up" status?

Might you theorize that she was NOT reared in a solid, stable God fearing home?
[ You might ]

BUT, Scripture does not even appear to HINT at her having "victim status."

Which raises the question:  Does identifying yourself as a victim ultimately help you or may it actually HARM you?

Following up - from an astute commenter

Seneca, your life's work is done!!

I have always had mixed feelings about TWW. The two undoubtedly were right to uncover church malfeasance, and if the leadership had been doing its job properly this ought not to have been necessary.

But as you have often commented there was a drift to the left, towards egalitarianism, the danger of which is it becomes that backdoor out of the faith, quite apart from being imo disobedient to scripture. The latter is hardly unimportant as TWW liked to criticize conservative evangelicals for their disobedience in not protecting the abused.

Then of course there was the legendary nastiness and bitterness of the commentariat. To what extent can you hold the blog administrators for this if they ostensibly are trying to allow genuine free speech? I can only speak for myself, but I believe the Lord convicted me to stop reading the blog because of the negative effect it can have on you. In fact I started to get like some of the commenters - cynical. 

Many on this type of blog are messed up people who don't want to get sorted out, and reinforce each others' misery and bitterness.  [ So sadly true - Sen ]

I have long since come to the conclusion that the internet can be a useful tool for exposing and discussing deception in Christian circles, but it is no substitute for contact with real people who can call you to account for your own sin and actually support you in dealing with bad church experiences,

You could either retire now, or keep an eye on any successor blogs to TWW.

Ken B

PS Thanks for my few seconds of fame earlier on on this blog. :-)

[ You're more than welcome and appreciated - Sen ]

DEE WANTS OUT

DEE, God bless her little pea-pickin' heart, has decided there must be more to life than writing articles criticizing the never ending sinfulness of those who leads churches and those who attend churches.  [ SURPRISE - sinners attend church; leaders are also sinners - unless you're Wade Burleson - dryly ]
So she's pushing others to take up the burden of criticizing sinners by establishing their own blogs.
_________

SERIOUSLY; Dee is a remarkable woman.  Her [ now ] one woman blog has a huge following; probably thousands of readers a day.  I felt happy if I got 30 readers a day. 
She has highlighted some leaders who have done great evil.

SADLY, she could never seem to tell the difference between John Piper and Tullian Tchividjian.

John Piper is great and Godly man - who's conservative theology you might disagree with but who's personal life has been exemplary. 

Tullian cheated on his wife and wants back in the ministry.

Dee probably wrote 100 posts assailing John Piper and maybe 5 about Tullian.

Dee has trouble knowing who the good guys are because the good guys are not feminists - they are Biblicists.
______

Anyhow, Dee would like a little more of her life; other posts have suggested she and her husband would like to retire and do other things than just work.  NOBODY has ever worked harder at a blog than Dee.

It is depressing if your spend your life writing posts critical of others as you try to eradicate sin in the church.  It ain't gonna happen.

Secondly, there are SO VERY MANY REAL VICTIMS in the world.  You can't write about them all.  They too will suck the life out of you if you allow it.  Dee has to be emotionally, psychologically and physically exhausted.

She has been the Don Quixote of "discernment" blogs.

But at the end of the day, a blog is just a blog.

Dee, hope you and Jim travel - enjoy meeting others and find peace among the chaos.

SINCERELY

Seneca Griggs.

Bored by Wartburg - Update

I admit it; after 10 years, it's pretty much the same old, same old.  Now weeks go by when I don't even glance at the headlines; which appear to be the same with slightly different wordings.
__________

I do think Dee has accomplished changes in the church when it comes to sexual sinners.

THE NEW RULES FOR CHURCHES;
1)  Offer heartfelt condolences for the victims first, whether you believe it or not.
2)  Lawyer up - she has encouraged lawsuits against churches. Sadly, if they get a lawyer, you're going to need one too.
3)  Find a sacrificial lamb if necessary and boot them off the team.
4)  Get rid of sexual sinners in your church - they'll only cause you headline heartache. 

[Actually, triage the sinners in your church from worst to least and start ridding the church of the worst of sinners.  dryly]

Personally I still think Christ built his church to change the hearts and minds of the WORST of sinners - particularly those who are sexually broken.  Your mileage may vary.

[  Psst, thanks B*****j for reading my blog ]

Joshua Harris - from a commenter

There seem to be two streams of thought regarding Harris. One, possibly mainly from women sees him as something of a victim of his upbringing, of fame and fortune through his book written probably before he had the maturity to cope with it. This stream is sympathetic to his plight.

The other stream, predominantly male, sees him as committing apostacy, and especially those of a strong Calvinist persuasion see him as never having been a genuine Christian at all. (He has 'gone out from among us'.) I think this judgement is somewhat premature.

I'm not sure either side is simply right or wrong, but I couldn't but help see Harris' collapse in the face of the LGBT assault on the faith does speak of a real loss of faith. 

My own sympathy for him is somewhat blunted by the fact that many Christians throughout history and today suffer for their faith and don't give it up in the face of such adversity. Giving up the faith is an act of moral wickedness, and this aspect does not deserve sympathy. 

That said, I have appreciated the very few commenters who still hold out hope for a reconciliation and restoration of the marriage and a firm faith in Christ.

I don't like the speculation indulged by some but there may well be more that will come to light in the future.

Ken B 

________________

Well written Sir.  If history is any judge, a downward trajectory may ensue.

Kris, I deeply apologize; I misjudged you

"Kris" is the blog queen of SGMsurvivors.  I have believed that she has, inadvertently, been enabling the continuing victim status of people who feel they were victimized by Sovereign Grace Ministries.

Well the impending divorce of  Josh and Shannon Harris triggered a truly moving, Biblical post by Kris.

You should read it all but I'll give you the last few paragraphs:
_________________

God hates divorce.

And God’s opinion is the only one that matters.

I don’t really want to make this post–the first in such a long time–about me, but for those of you who have asked, I need to share my heart. There’s a reason I haven’t posted here much.

You see, a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I found myself growing frustrated with what I was seeing, both on this site and on other “watchblogger” sites. It seemed to me like more and more of the people who figured out the truth about their Sovereign Grace churches didn’t just reject the Sovereign Grace craziness. Instead, they felt the need to reject Bible-based Christianity in a much broader, more profound way.

And this filled me with fear.

Someday very soon, we all are going to stand in front of the God of the universe, the perfectly holy, perfectly righteous God as He is portrayed in scripture. If we have not accepted what He did for us through the atoning work of Christ on the cross, if we have not repented of our sins (as sin is defined in the Bible) and accepted this great gift of salvation, then that day in front of the Lord is going to be extremely frightening, a day of pain and regret and weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It’s not going to matter if we found ourselves, lived our dreams, did what made us happy on earth. It’s not going to matter if we were the wokest woke person who ever woked.

On that day, the ONLY thing that will matter is whether we are right with God. And if you somehow have ended up rejecting the Jesus of scripture when you rejected your Sovereign Grace church, then you are in deep trouble.

Don’t let disillusionment with a particular church system lead you to turn away from Christ. He is all that matters, and His work on your behalf is the only thing that will stand between you and eternity in hell. No matter what our pagan culture may be telling us, God is still God, sin is still sin, and we all need a Savior.

Go back to the Bible. Read the scriptures. Let the Holy Spirit illuminate them. Allow yourself to be convicted and transformed by God’s Word.

Love and blessings,

Kris

_____________-

Kudos Kris for your very Biblical post  - like Paul   you're heart is that no one would turn away from the only Salvation available to man

JOHN HARRIS AND WIFE SHANNON SEPARATE - UPDATE

I FULLY expect this sad headline to provide an excuse to attack and villify the hated conservative Evangelical on various and sundry "discernment" blogs.

I'll update - possibly - if I feel so moved - if someone comments.
_________

The apparent trajectory of the marriage.

Shannon [ and perhaps Josh ] abandons the Evangelical ethos

Josh [ and perhaps Shannon ] abandon the purity culture.

THEN marital dissolution appears.

That appears to be the trajectory

Sexual Victimization by Women Is More Common Than Previously

Confusing the T.W.W. narrative of chaste feminism.

Scripture can help you here.  ALL PEOPLE, women included, are sinners desperately in need of a Savior.  It's not just the men.

"Will the role of women wars eclipse the sex abuse issue? Yes."

One of Dee's points with which I agree.
____________-

Here's the deal; those who wanted to highlight abuse at Birmingham had as part of their unspoken agenda, the feminist agenda.  They were questioned about that.  Dee considers that to be grossly unfair.

Dee wishes to be the judge of the SBC

Interesting interchange over on SBCvoices - where Dee is NOT the moderator.

https://sbcvoices.com/malevolence-incompetence-and-ignorance-in-the-sbc-concerning-abuse/#comments

Dee Parsons

People mouthing things from the stage is one thing. When I see normal people who are living it out, I know it has taken.

Dave Miller

Those people on stage have, I believe, given every indication that they are living it out.

To say they are simply “mouthing things” is unkind and unwarranted. JD has shown commitment and passion on this issue, as have many others.

DEE has become acclimated to being all powerful on her blog.  [  I am all powerful on mine. ]

Dee works hard to control the narrative on TWW.  She is very much like the senior SBC leaders she attacks who are tasked to lead and protect the SBC and their church.

I doubt Dee sees the similarities

Dee weighs in on SBC convention

You surely knew she would not speak positively of the steps the SBC has taken.  You surely knew that.

Remember; she is at heart a feminist and thinks elders/pastors can be women.  The SBC, relying on a straight forward reading of Scripture, don't think that.

It's always been more then just about women who have been abused.  It's about re-interpreting Scripture to more align with the modern, liberal culture.  

BUT Scripture has always been counter-cultural and continues to be so.  

There were no surprises to Dee's post.

Dee plays the innocent

Commenter Dan had it right

"I wonder if the reason you are not being allowed to have space is that it might their impression that this organization is hostile towards the SBC and very likely to be disruptive and thus this is not the place for that."

__________--

Dee writes a post decrying the SBC not letting her group of survivor types not have a place inside the exhibit.  If you have read T.W.W. at all you know that Dee disagrees with who they are [ SBC ] and what they believe and practice.  She is a feminist; she believes women should be free to preach from the pulpit. The SBC take Scripture much more seriously - women not to preach/lead.

She believes the S.B.C. should be like the Lutherans;  Mohler, Grear et.al. continue to think the SBC should hold to their biblical roots.  Who knew.

Dee is being disingenuous when she decry's her groups lack of official space.  She believe's her doctrine is correct and the SBC should adopt her feminist viewpoint.  Why should they give her "a seat at their table?"

HAROLD CAMPING

https://senecagriggs.wixsite.com/website/post/harold-camping-s-folly

It's not about Calvinism, it's about Scriptural Authority.

And that, my friends, is the bottom line for WartburgWatch.  They reject Scriptural authority.  To accept Scriptural  authority would require the rejection of feminism.

Could it be that Calvinists are losing the debate in the blogosphere?

It's actually quite simple.  If you like your Scripture straight up, if you hold to inerrancy, you'll never have a big problem with Calvinism.

BUT, if you have a feminist perspective, as WartburgWatch clearly does; you'll hate Calvinism because IT is not going to support feminism.

Actually, if you are of a feminist persuasive, you are also going to have problems with conservative Arminianism.  That's why T.W.W. doesn't like the Southern Baptist; be they Calvinistic or Arminian in their approach.

If you're a feminist, you'll hate INERRANCY from either school of thought.

Here's what Scripture informs:

Rom 11;3-5
The Remnant of Israel
…3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”? 4And what was thedivine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myselfseven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.…

AND THE POINT IS:  It will always be a small group of individuals who have not bowed the knee to the current societal flow of FEMINISM.

It is IMMENSELY unpopular even in most Evangelical churches to suggest that God ordained different roles and positions for men and women.

So there you have it;  Calvinists are not winning the debate, they have NEVER been winning the debate.  They just continue to hold to the inerrancy of Scripture - hugely unpopular in our secular/feminist times.

[  God has always had his watchmen; He will ALWAYS have His watchmen.  More often then not; their stance against the liberal world view will make them outcasts at places like T.W.W who support the broad highway of Christianity lite. ]

Good Advice for women in social media

I received this thru the blog; I think it's got some excellent advice for women who use social media.

https://www.vpnmentor.com/blog/the-empowering-internet-safety-guide-for-women/

You gonna be a victim?

Anon comment on John MacArthur and Master's Seminary

The police kit and the report are referenced in the initial article. The kit confirmed sexual contact happened. So the FACTS of sexual encounter have been established and the police noted it as RAPE. The he said she said scenario stopped the prosecution. 

However, it seems the man confessed to those in authority at the school. Further given the NOW PUBLICLY documented anomalies at the Masters Seminary and college in reference to degree granting, ignorance of unqualified professors on law, procedures, behaviors, bullying etc... Add that to the nepotism and financial gain to the tune of nearly 7 million dollars for MacArthur's son-in-law... again ALL THIS IS NOW DOCUMENTED in the probation report upon the school. I'd like to know the relationship of the alleged rapist to members of faculty and the church. Based on the nature of control and fear the probation DOCUMENTS, I'm suspicious that this was not another institutional cover up. This lady may have been victimized several times. First by the rapist, then by the friends of the rapist hiding or keeping silent of the strange behavior, and then by the staff at the Masters Seminary. While this could be a false allegation of rape, it is certainly more credible than the nay sayers here would like to pretend. Worship the god of human perfectionism etc... But, an honest reading of this allegation and just the now  public facts concerning the shenanigans and sinful actions documented at TMS, should keep one from drinking the Kool Aid here. There would be simple means of clearing this up. Allow an independent investigation of this story. I'd want my church or Seminary cleared of any wrong doing. I would welcome an investigation of the situation. It happened to Paige Patterson. The cover up lasted for over a decade. Once investigated, he was fired from Southwestern Seminary and stripped of all benefits. Unfortunately, the case here fits the EXACT same pattern. [  Actually it doesn't at all - SG ]
__________

Dear Anon

Some random thoughts:

Never confuse allegations with facts.  NEVER - When something is "documented" - it may be much less than you think.  An allegation can be "documented."  That doesn't mean it is actually true.

Memory is a variable thing.  Especially regarding incidents that happened a decade ago to say nothing of yesterday.   There are so very many studies that make it plain; you cannot trust people's memories.  [ The research is fascinating actually. ]

I wasn't there; you speak as if you were not there either.  It's pretty plain something happened but what, I certainly do not know.

I absolutely do not know the heart of any of the individuals at Master's Seminary be they the President, Chancellor, Administrators, Professors or students.

BUT based upon Scripture

"Jeremiah 17:9-10 - The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? 

we can know there are no sinless individuals at Master's Seminary.

I'm certainly not sinless, I'm thinking you are not either.
Neither is the young lady or the young man involved in the sexual activities.

Paige Patterson;  As I understand it, He was fired for lying to the trustees.  There were other issues as well - neither you nor I were at the meetings between Paige and the trustees however so we're making suppositions predicated upon second hand materials.

 _________

Anon, I appreciate your proffering a comment.  I do have a question.  What's your "skin" in this brouhaha?

You have a narrative; let's hear it plainly if you will.  S.G.

Dr. Steve comment: "a BattaBOOM" ? - *W.T.F. So much bile from TWW commenters over the years

So Dee writes this quite moving post regarding the suicide of Braxton Caner  [ Ergun Caner's son ] and the apology of J.D. Hall.  who had a brief interaction with Braxton on Twitter a couple of weeks before Braxton's death.

Dee's post is thoughtful and lacks snark, sarcasm etc.  She said she was going to close the comments but forgot  before two were written.

So, to recap, you have this post that begs people to let go of the Caner/Hall controversy, the whole issue of a young man's suicide and then the very very first comment is from "Dr. Steve" who writes:  "ABattaBOOM"

Well I don't know who "Dr. Steve" is but *W.T. F. is that comment?

______

And that has always been one of the bigger problems with WartburgWatch.  Dee has allowed people to write absolutely outrageous comments seemingly without any pushback [ except against me dryly -]

There are some really bitter/angry people who read and respond on T.W.W.  I truly believe that is part of the "bitter-fruit" of Dee's "discernment blog."

* = fudge

"DEEPLY TROUBLED"

I've come to hate that phrase.  It's way overused by those involved in virtue signaling - victim blogs, discernment blogs, etc.

Any time you see that phrase - take a big breath; you're about to see someone get slimed.

Survivors; do you want revenge or do you want to be whole.

You can't have them both.

Phil Johnson nails it.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21212024&postID=7280556643587836562
___

Do survivor blogs and "discernment" blogs actually help anybody or do they encourage further bitterness and resentment?

I think it's the latter.

Insightful comment

I can’t bring myself to look at TWW either. In years past I saw the most mocking remarks towards Calvinists I have ever seen in my life at that site. I am a Calvinist. I love Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, Iain Murray, and so many others. If WW is criticizing Mohler for mocking fellow Christians I hope they can remove logs from their own eyes first. The cracks about young earth creationists there, or people who believe in biblical male leadership in churches, well, that site was like a sewer pipe of mockery. Been a while since I was there so maybe the tone has improved, I don’t know. But they hold the prize for mockery IMO.

TWW dislike Al Mohler more than ever,

http://news.sbts.edu/2019/02/15/statement-r-albert-mohler-jr-sovereign-grace-churches/

ALBERT MOHLER PODCAST

If you want Dr. Mohler's take on the challenges facing the SBC, he has a daily podcast - Monday's looks at the problems facing the SBC as he discusses the Houston Chronicle article.

https://albertmohler.com/

HOUSTON CHRONICLE COUNT

380 LEADERS have been accused of sexual sins. 220 convicted.

A church leader according to this list includes;

Pastors,
teachers(at private schools), 
church volunteers,
nurses, 
deacons/elders
and assorted staff.

RUSSELL MOORE

 Our denomination now has a Sexual Abuse Presidential Study Group assigned with investigating all options and reviewing what other denominations and groups have done to keep track of abuses, while hearing from law enforcement, psychological and psychiatric experts, survivors, and many others.

Our approach is seeking to encourage policies and practices that protect children and the vulnerable from sexual abuse in autonomous but cooperating churches, all the while promoting compliance with laws and providing compassionate care for those who have survived trauma. True, we have no bishops. But we have a priesthood of believers. 

WHO DOES WARTBURGWATCH HATE MORE? UPDATE

The Houston Chronicle is about to release a story about abuse and coverups within Southern Baptist Churches.  It looks to be very revealing.

[ 47,000 Southern Baptist Churches in USA]

But back to the headline of this post.  Wartburgwatch is all over this of course, but my question is:  Who do they hate more?  The actual abusers or Albert Mohler.

My money is on Albert Mohler as more hated by the denizens of T.W.W. then the actual abusers.

Why is Albert Mohler so hated?  It's because of his stance on Scripture.
_______

Insightful readers will keep this in mind; you can be a member of a Southern Baptist Church, you CANNOT be a member of the SBC denomination.  Each SBC church is autonomous.  There is no denominational membership for individuals.

ARTICLE:
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/investigations/article/Southern-Baptist-sexual-abuse-spreads-as-leaders-13588038.php

CRUCIAL -
August "Augie" Boto, interim president of the SBC's Executive Committee, helped draft the rejection of reform proposals in 2008. In an interview, he expressed "sorrow" about some of the newspapers' findings but said the convention's leadership can do only so much to stop sexual abuses.
"It would be sorrow if it were 200 or 600" cases, Boto said. "Sorrow. What we're talking about is criminal. The fact that criminal activity occurs in a church context is always the basis of grief.

But it's going to happen.

And that statement does not mean that we must be resigned to it."

__________

I would think; taking into account the number of Southern Baptist Churches and membership, MORE than 700 people have experienced sexual abuse of assorted leadership in the last 20 years.  It is the nature of sin - from which we all suffer.

T.W.W. -finding sinners everywhere they look - except for the people they like

TWW has confirmed the sinfulness of Evangelical pastors/leaders/preachers and theologians.

Of interest to me:  if you accused John Piper, Al Mohler, C.J. Mahaney, John MacArthur, Lig Duncan, Mark Dever, Jonathan Leaman, Matt Walsh, Alastair Begg of being terrible sinners;  THEY WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.

ALL OF THEM believe that man is born with a "bent towards sin" and need the Grace of God if they are ever to be justified and made righteous.

They are much hated by many of the commenters at T.W.W.

Preach the Bible; not Calvinism

https://www.9marks.org/article/preach-the-bible-not-calvinism/?fbclid=IwAR3H_Z-RPr-AHc-YPEwVz_FCJ7HueV-a5ekrqccoM9mMPHBqmzGgxP3Ktk0

Who's lying? Wartburgwatch or John MacArthur

A journalist who apparently does not like John MacArthur tracked down Charles Evers to get him to tell John MacArthur to quit lying about being in Memphis and a part of the ministers present when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.

Charles Evers, a truly decent man by history, is now 96 years old.  If you actually didn't have an axe to grind against John MacArthur you just might think that Charles' memory is no longer what it once was.

Of course, almost without exception, everybody including Dee is lining up against John MacArthur.  She really, really doesn't like conservative Evangelical men  [ and some evangelical women ].

You are less than a serious thinker if you want to trust your narrative about an incident 50 years ago to a 96 year old man.

Hating C.J. Mahaney - part one thousand and 33. UPDATE

Today Jonathan Leaman was attacked by Wartburgwatch [ again ] because of his friendship with C.J. Mahaney.
*
I need to come clean.  As far as I can tell my sins are not any less than C.J.'s
*
So if asked, "Would I allow myself to be friends with C.J. Mahaney?"
*
My answer would be, "Would C.J. Mahaney allow himself to be friends with me."

UPDATE:

If you pay any attention, you'll know the blood thirst of the social justice lynch mob would never be sated by whatever apology 
[ mea culpa ]  C.J. might make.

It just wouldn't happen.  They will hate C.J. with or without an apology.

The social justice lynch mob does not forgive.

Victimhoodculture

http://victimhoodculture.com/

We're being inundated